1Christian.Net - WWMB Discussion - Backing up!!! *beep....beep....beep*
World Wide Message Board
| 1Christian.Net | WWMB Home | Discussion List | Edit Profile | Join for Free |

| Return to the Main Dicussion | Reply to This Message |

Backing up!!! *beep....beep....beep*
Posted By: icometoworship About Me
Posted On: 6/10/2007 2:48:14 AM

I hear exactly what you're saying about each thing, and I don't disagree, but maybe I need to explain more of where I'm coming from with some of the things I said. Over the years, I've been in many different churches and have left each one deeply grieved over how the Body was operating....I've seen and heard things that should never be a part of anything that assumes the name of Jesus. I had a pastor get upset with me simply because I said that my family was believing in Jesus to heal someone....his response was, "don't discount what the doctors can do!!" I've had pastors accuse me of following a false doctrine when they found out I'm Spirit filled, saying, "you obviously don't know the Word." I was under a pastor one time that began preaching that all those in hell(past, present and future) and even satan himself will all eventually be saved. I know a pastor who requires his church members to call him "KING" and they are NOT to address him as brother or any other "low" term that puts him as their equal. And I could give you many more examples of things like this! *sigh* So it should be no surprise that I eventually began crying out to the Lord to show me what was causing all of this within His Body...."what is going on in the church?" And in the last few years, He's shown me so very much about what has become of the church. And please know that when I write these things, I'm not saying this in anger...I hope you both can truly hear my heart in this....I know what the Lord has shown me and I can't turn from the revelation of what He has revealed.

If you look back in Scripture and then look at today's church, most of what you see in church comes from man's ideas. The term "church" used to refer to the Body of Christ, but now that term is more often used to refer to a building. Jesus and the apostles after Him all came to tell the world that He (Jesus) was the only way to God and they spoke of what it meant to be a member of the Body of Christ...a Saint! Today, more emphasis is put on being a member of this church or that church. Instead of being taught to abide in the True Vine, people are put under condemnation for not being loyal to their pastor or for not being at every service! You can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the New Testament, those who had been saved were from that point on called over and over "saints"...not "sinners". The "sinner" in the NT referred to what they USED to be before becoming a new creation and it also referred to those who had not yet recieved Jesus as their Savior. Time after time, the Word points out what amazing things happen to the sinner who's been saved through the blood of Jesus....we are saints, new creations, heirs, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, not to live under condemnation, free from the law, saved by grace, and so on. But in most churches today, condemnation and living under the law is pushed into our faces as we are reminded over and over what filthy sinners we are. All hope of having any kind of intimacy with Jesus is stripped from us! I obviously realize that we do still sin, but with Jesus living in us, we have the power to overcome. Emphasizing our sainthood shows us that there's a holiness and righteousness to be sought, there's an intimacy with Jesus that can be had, there's a maturity in Him that can be attained, and we're the spotless bride that He's perfecting till the end. I've noticed that most of the "dead" churches I've been in have never moved past putting it's "members" under the condemnation of sin....people are never given any hope of being able to conquer and overcome the sin in their lives. The saints were told not to forsake the assembling of themselves....but they were told this because their fellowship together brought encouragement and strength (exhortation)....there was nothing in there about backsliding or disappointing God because they weren't in "church". As a matter of fact, I consider this time in the WWMB as assembling with the Body because I know the two of you know Jesus and I'm encouraged by what you both write. Man has really distorted what it means to assemble, to exhort, to fellowship, to worship, etc.

From the time you walk into a "church", you're filled with what man has created. From the building itself to the neatly organized "program" that everyone must follow in order for "church" to happen. Where is Jesus? And with all my heart, I don't believe that the pastor was to be OVER the church...."some were to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers..." Do all these ministeries not share equal importance in the Body? I can't remember where it is or who the man was, but there was a man in the NT who was "put in his place" after he tried to "rule" over the Body. Why does the pastor get his own office, with his own parking space, with his very own chair that sits on the raised stage that looks down on the "rest of us"? Tim, I agree with you completely about a laborer being worthy of his wages, but what grieves me is the fact that these ministries are what we're called to "BE" not "DO"! Can you not be a pastor while cleaning out sewers? Can you not be an evangelist while scrubbing toilets? Being a pastor is who you are, not what you do. It was man's doing centuries ago to make these ministries into positions. I've known way too many pastors, evangelists, prophets, etc who are all too quick to let everyone know their "title," their "position." And I hear all the time, pastors saying, "my church this, and my church that..." You mentioned that you had been given money for speaking at a youth event.....no problem. If the church felt led to give you a gift, then I don't see that any different than a family taking in the disciples to feed them and give them a place to stay. It would have been different if you'd said, "Sure I'll come speak, but this is the price I require."

And about the Christian Music Industry....I do realize it's an industry, but like with the church, I have to ask....why was worship ever even turned into an industry? I don't question the whole earning points thing....I question the very existence of the industry. Was this industry not formed by man? Sure, God's name was put on it, but when you have to pay to worship....red flags spring up everywhere! When I hear churches talking about having to pay some five thousand dollars for music for one event and then hear the church members saying, "Yeah, it's really expensive, but boy will we be worshipping then"!!! I'm grieved Tim and Rose!! This just isn't Jesus!!! Worship comes from the heart and through the Holy Spirit, and the cost for it has already been paid. Should saints who truly want to worship the Lord and lead others into that worship have to worry about how many points they have to earn or how many CD's they have to sell or how many concerts they have to have? I'm not judging the artists themselves, I'm grieved over what this industry has done to the artists who really do love the Lord and want to glorify Him. Because of this manmade industry, artists are now the focus of adoration and praise, not God. Because of this manmade industry, Christians think it's their "right" to be entertained. I don't know any Christians in Africa or China who are crying out "I deserve to be entertained". Are Christians not to be set apart? The Christian Music Industry looks an awful lot like the secular music industry. If the CMI doesn't look any different than the world, then where does Jesus fit in? I believe that Jesus is honored by the artists who truly love Him and worship Him, but I don't think the Lord is a bit honored by the industry itself. I've known more than one person who was truly annointed in music, but because of the CMI, they would say things like, "I want to use what the Lord has given me to draw others to Him, to minister through music........and when I'm rich and famous, I'm going to....."!! I went to a concert where a pretty famous Christian group was performing, and at the end of the night, they had only mentioned God once or twice at the very end when they asked the audience to pray that they win the Dove award they'd been nominated for! That's not Jesus either! I question how many of these talented men and women would be singing Christian music if there was no industry, no hope for fame or fortune, and no hope for earthy rewards! I know of some that would because it's evident their love for the Lord surpasses their involvement in the industry, but I believe there are many who wouldn't.

In all of this, I think it's our responsibility as Christians (as the true Church) to gain understanding about what's man vs. what's God! For centuries, man's ways have been creeping into things that were originally ordained of God. But once man starts adding to and taking away from, Jesus slowly but surely gets ignored and man becomes the focus. Everything man creates, glorifies man....whether you put Jesus' name on it or not. I desire to walk by the Spirit so that I can always discern what my God did or did not have His hand in.

Okay......I've been writing for a couple of hours now, and I'm about to fall out!! :-) Again, I ask that you guys hear my heart on this....I don't mean to bring condemnation, judgement or otherwise on anyone.....but just share what the Lord has been revealing to me over the last couple of years. I think we, especially in America, have a very distorted view of who God really is and what He's about.....we worship our ideas of Him yet ignore what He's really called us to. A few months ago, I felt the presence of the Lord so strong, it frigtened me....I knew Him in a way I've never known Him....it took me a good week to get over the overwhelming feeling it caused. I knew at that point that our watered down sermons don't even come close to who He is! He's greater than I've ever imagined! And what an awesome love He has!! Alright....I'm out!!

Message Thread
Current Message Is In Bold.

I'm about to scream!!! LOL (icometoworship - 5/29)
Praise the Lord (icometoworship - 5/29)
Oh Yeah (tiredtim - 5/30)
Oh Yeah (icometoworship - 6/4)
Hmmm...I gotta defend something here (tiredtim - 6/6)
Hmmm...I gotta defend something here (Rose - 6/6)
Backing up!!! *beep....beep....beep* (icometoworship - 6/10)
Hmmm...I gotta defend something here (Rose - 6/6)
Backing up!!! *beep....beep....beep* (tiredtim - 6/10)
I love listening to you... (Rose - 6/11)
*laugh* (icometoworship - 6/11)
*laugh* (Rose - 6/11)

Add A New Reply
Directions: To add a reply enter your username, password, subject & message. Web links and images are optional.
User Name: Forget your ID or Password?
Hyperlink Web Address:

(ie: http://www.amustardseed.com/ )
Name of Hyplink:

(ie: AMustardseed.com Homepage )
Image Location:

(ie: http://www.amustardseed.com/albums/covers/thirdday00.jpg )

© 2000 1Christian.Net --
WWMB Privacy Policy